What do our fantasies say about us? In this episode, we go deep into the rabbit hole.
This episode covers adult/mature themes. Listen at your own discretion!
Direct Link to MP3 (19.4 MB, 21 minutes 16 seconds)
Links
Girl Cartoons (8C)
Tsurupeta.info (mt-i)
My Sword is Unbelievably Dull (21stcenturydigitalboy)
“Lolicon: The Reality of ‘Virtual Child Pornography’ in Japan” by Patrick W. Galbraith (file: PDF)
Sound Credits
Opening (00:00 – 02:12)
“A World of My Own” (audio excerpt, Alice in Wonderland)
“Tandem-Holiday” (Heinz Kiessling)
“Black Dada” (Fantastic Plastic Machine)
Part 1: Lolita no Ai (02:13 – 13:01)
“Hajimete Shimasho” (Rizelmine OST)
“Ai no Lolita” (Nanako SOS image song)
“Tsuretete” (Boku no Pico OST)
“Dancing Star (off-vocal)” (Urusei Yatsura OST)
“Yuna Mochizuki” (junior idol video BGM)
“Neko Mimi Mode (off-vocal)” (Tsukuyomi: Moon Phase OST)
“Sekai wa Odoru yo, Kimi to. (off-vocal)” (Ikoku Meiro no Croisée OST)
“Himeji Mizuki” (Baka to Test to Shokanjuu OST)
“Cutie Honey” (GO!GO!7188 cover)
Part 2: The NEET’s Tale (13:02 – 20:12)
“Ano Ko no Kare” (Kojima Mayumi)
“Milk” (Penguin Café Orchestra)
“Fight For Your Right (To Party)” (Beastie Boys)
“Inori no Kanata (instrumental)” (Tales of Symphonia OST)
“Quiz” (Skalpel)
“This is Onii-san Essence” (audio excerpt, Imouto Jiru)
“Ii Yume Mite Ne.” (K-ON! OST)
“Future Gazer (off-vocal)” (To Aru Kagaku no Railgun OST)
Conclusion (20:13 – 21:16)
“Kaze ni Azukete” (Advantage Lucy)
December 12, 2011 at 3:39 am
I wish I’d had anything nearly as interesting to say as 8c and mti!
>>>“This is Onii-san Essence” (Imouto Jiru OST)
>>>(Imouto Jiru OST)
FFFFFFFFFF I CANT BELIEVE THIS EXISTS (no, it can’t!)
December 12, 2011 at 3:40 am
Oops. I meant to say “audio excerpt.” My mistake.
December 12, 2011 at 3:49 am
Seriously though, you’re great!
December 12, 2011 at 10:06 am
btw I think it’s hilarious that you censored me saying “shit” in a podcast where I also talk about onii-san essence.
December 14, 2011 at 11:59 pm
LMAO I can’t stop laughing at that part XD
December 12, 2011 at 7:13 am
2005, not 2008, I’m not that young! orz
Quite interesting! And I applaud your editing skills; extracting a somewhat coherent argument out of my ramblings is a pretty impressive feat
[And if you'll excuse me, I'll ramble a bit more now that I've got to listen to what 8C said
.
Re Galbraith, one should be careful that while his work is scholarship, it is 'militant' scholarship. His purpose is to establish the legitimacy of an embarrassingly large and historically meaningful segment of otaku subculture among an English-speaking academic audience that views anything even mildly connected to pedophilia as basically taboo (i.e. you won't get grants for saying anything about those matters besides "IT'S EVIL PERIOD"). Whereas the struggle against overbearing phallocracy sits well with a large segment of e.g. American academia.
Still, I can see how, as 8C says, the work of some lolicon artists (probably those with stronger gekiga influences like Machida Hiraku) can be viewed as basically saying "I am this little girl and those rapists are society" (you can probably write an interpretation of Spirited Away along those lines as well). But nowadays, they seem to be strongly in the minority, with a softer 'moe' aesthetic (that makes the little girl an object of sexual interest, though not usually a weak and passive one as I mentioned) being the norm. And while I wish I knew more about the lolicon boom of the 80's (haven't been able to put my hands on actual copies of Manga Burikko, for example), it doesn't seem to me from the second-hand reports that the "gekiga" works were that common even then.
The "photos of 3d girls in Burikko" argument doesn't seem that convincing to me either. For one thing, one cannot really equate Burikko or its readership with 'the emerging lolicon community' or somesuch; I mean, the magazine ran those famous inflammatory columns by Nakamori Akio that copiously insulted otaku (and is credited for coining the word). Moreover, we know that those "3d girl" pictures caused some backlash, but one would need to look at the precise complaints to draw appropriate conclusions; it could have been a variant of the contemporary "3d pig disgusting" rhetoric of some of our friends on Twitter these days.
At any rate, if you go to Toranoana in Akihabara today, you'll find the junior-idol video corner right next to loli eromanga, and probably little outrage about that (or at least not vocal enough to get the shelf moved elsewhere). Certainly, you won't find pictures of real little girls in Comic LO (which incidentally has the most tasteful and classy covers of all eromanga magazines, bar none), but it has 'Yes lolita, no touch!' as its tagline for a reason, and that reason is not, I believe, that readers typically identify with the little girls in those manga.
Now I'm curious to see what tagline they'll choose for the soon-to-be-launched otoko no ko-only magazine from the same publisher
.]
Sorry for ranting!
December 12, 2011 at 10:07 am
I love this whole idea of the self as little girl, rapists as society. It can’t explain everything I love about loli, but I definitely identify with the idea.
December 17, 2011 at 1:50 am
You know what was the weirdest thing to me, in a semi-related direction? The porn shops in Akiba get more extreme and strange with each upward floor, and yet those same dodgy junior idol videos are indeed on the ground floor. Right next to all the manga. No idea what that says.
December 12, 2011 at 7:15 am
Great podcast. I’d like to applaud 21CDB on his choice of dakimakura. Kenshin was probably the best heroine in Sengoku Rance.
On to more serious matters, interesting theory about how lolicons project themselves onto the women and not the men. I’m not too sure I buy this argument; from personal experience (the limited times that I’ve seen lolicon stuff, as I don’t identify as a lolicon) I’ve always projected onto the men. Perhaps this is because I’ve been primed to do so by the other porn that I watch (on a much more frequent basis.)
re: manufacturing realities— it takes someone with an incredibly imaginative mind to be content with a 2D-waifu. You can’t just be lonely. You need to be lonely and creative. Sometimes, I envy those people. Me? I value the aesthetic beauty of 2D girls. They’re objects to be appreciated.
December 12, 2011 at 10:04 am
The part that got left out is my admittance that I didn’t have any idea who the character was at the time that I bought it. It was a freeby with a volume of Dengeki G’s, and I bought it just because I wanted to own a dakimakura. Fun fact: I’d thought she was a loli. The way her right breast looks is kind of like a flat chest, and it was confusing to me at first why her other breast looked larger. Later I learned about the character and pieced it together.
Re: projecting, I project onto everyone in porn depending on the situation. The loli, the woman, the guy, the tentacle monster: it’s a mood thing.
December 17, 2011 at 1:52 am
I had the Kenshin dakimakura too! But I didn’t want to interrupt a good narrative.
Where woman-as-projected-object applies more, I think? NTR. As mind-bending as that is in principle.
December 12, 2011 at 12:55 pm
My favourite podcast out of the 4 you’ve released so far. I didn’t think I would get to listen to a podcast on porn, especially such a good one, but as always, you don’t disappoint when it comes to that topic. I personally never really though of the lolicon material I have on my PC as anything more than one of my many fetishes, so I haven’t thought about the projecting, but I can’t imagine projecting myself into women. But then, I don’t pick up lolicon material because I particularly care about the genre or implied age of a participant, just because I liked the scenes or the designs, or (rarely) because I was interested in the plot.
Also Kenshin is awesome.
December 17, 2011 at 1:53 am
Thanks! I happen to think this is my best-produced so far, so I appreciate the praise.
Glad this got you to think, as well!
December 12, 2011 at 1:29 pm
A very good podcast with that distinct style I like. It’s rare that I get to compare with other’s experiences with porn. Even (or especially) if the subject of lolicon isn’t one of my fantasies.
If I may, I take this opportunity to say that 2DT sounds like a fluffy Kyubey.
On a more constructive note, my opinion on porn in general is that as long as people can distinguish their fantasies from real life, they should be trusted with their “alone-time” choices. But I feel this is too idealistic to ever be a reality.
December 12, 2011 at 5:02 pm
Oh man, I would so watch a dub of Madoka if 2DT played Kyuubei.
December 17, 2011 at 1:55 am
Kyuu… bey? Why? Well, I won’t deny a compliment, that’s for sure.
It’s idealistic, maybe, but it’s an ideal I think many of us agree with. You are not what you touch yourself to.
December 12, 2011 at 4:02 pm
great topic to touch upon. although i don’t like L-O, i find the prohibitions on such things really really stupid. in the end, i’d say that they provide a safe material for real pedophiles without actual children getting hurt.
it was very interesting how your interviewees distinguished reality from fantasy and i was pretty amazed by the power issues in theses stuff that aren’t how someone would normally expect.
December 17, 2011 at 1:57 am
This is a topic I didn’t really touch on: How well lolicon functions as an outlet for real sexual desires. But this might be a natural consequence of having interviewees who, as you say, distinguished reality and fantasy just fine.
Liking lolicon is liking lolicon, it seems.
December 12, 2011 at 4:17 pm
Kind of going off-topic here, but I really respect digitalboy for having the kind of perspective and philosophy that he has. Being able to shrug off what other people think and say and being true to yourself shows confidence, security in one’s self, and mental strength. What he said was really inspirational. I wonder what I’d be like today if I wasn’t worried about how I look in front of other people.
People often try to hide my interests in the otaku culture and some of the odd opinions that I have, but does that really help? Not only do you deny yourself what you enjoy, other people can kind of tell that you’re faking it. It’s not really fun talking to someone behind a mask, and it’s really easy to tell since you’re just agreeing with the popular opinion and/or remaining neutral.
I realize that what he was discussing was less about how other people view you and more about how you view your life and make it enjoyable and colourful, but I think they’re interconnected. This makes me think back on what was said before about personas and how we live two lives, but is there even a need for that? Perhaps we should censure ourselves a little in consideration of people who don’t share the same interests, but it’s important to remain true both to ourselves and other people. I guess it`s kind of like how people who are open about who they are and their hobbies, no matter how odd it is, will have more friends than the kid who (ironically) comes off as obnoxious/unfriendly because s/he is too busy building a false persona with no substance.
December 12, 2011 at 5:11 pm
I can’t pretend I made a bold decision to live the way I do. It’s just how I’ve always been. I grew up always having long hair and liking things that were uncool. It never occurred to me growing up to change myself. I never made a ton of friends, and I got picked on, but I just thought that’s the way it is. I was way, way too full of myself to even consider that I should change. It was always like, “fuck all these idiots, I’m the best here.” I’m not childish like that anymore, but I’m still never going to be someone who can put how I seem to others ahead of how I seem to myself. Especially because I don’t need to—I’ve already got the best friends I could ask for and a great life. It may have been painful to be a rebel against society, but it was never an option to be something else.
December 17, 2011 at 2:00 am
What he said.
December 13, 2011 at 6:12 am
WILDARMSHEERO, WHO I USED TO LOOK UP TO
December 13, 2011 at 1:40 pm
Ah, old times…
December 14, 2011 at 2:00 am
To be fair, you’re less annoying now.
December 14, 2011 at 10:54 am
Thanks? I haven’t checked to see if you’re less of an ass :p
December 17, 2011 at 2:00 am
Oh, you guys.
December 14, 2011 at 5:45 am
Interesting.
However I kind of understand people’s concern when dealing with child pornography. From my anime fan point of view I know cartoons are just that, even if some are made mainly to satisfy those kind of needs. But when people hear about pornography they think about the other kind, the no cartoony one, (now I don’t know how pornography is made but if they are using children to make it is a crime), people don’t know the difference and I don’t expect them to, for them all of it is “obscene material with minors”.
The general public wants a guarantee, yes you know the difference between fiction and the real world, the boundaries of where fantasy ends and reality begins, but that doesn’t really put people at peace, I wonder how many individuals who eventually committed a crime were able to say that. I’m not saying you’ll become criminal but for example: you are a primary school teacher and somehow they discover you like lolis and such, even if you never committed a crime, what would the parents think? Would they understand if you tried to explain the circumstances?
As for myself I have nothing against pornography, or better said eroticism as a form of art… a very different name for obscene material since I doubt you people read/watch it for the sake of art.
Even if “for the sake of art” is an overused excuse for many things, just like doing something morally questionable “for the sake of science”
December 17, 2011 at 2:06 am
This is one aspect I have trouble with: To what degree are we simply “in too deep” and don’t see what other people (rightfully) see?
In the case of outright lolicon, I think most of us do fine in distinguishing what disgusts people about it. But, for example, most H manga features some kind of high school girl. Is that really okay, and if not, why are we blind to it? Things like that, I still ponder over.
Thanks for listening, and for the thoughtful comment!
You are truly the best.
December 15, 2011 at 12:40 am
Great podcast! I was thinking about making a post on how society expects you to conform with their idea of morality and ‘proper’ interests both in terms of fetishes and anime as a hobby in general, but laziness took over as usual.
I’m not a lolicon (probably, I might be in denial or something), but many of my favorite characters are lolis. 2D and 3D is very separate for me though, because I hate kids.
I tend to like traps simply because I am one, which is also about being able to relate to a character – though in more ways than simply having a penis. It’s also a form of escapism for me however, as IRL very few traps actually look cute and very few find love =_=
Speaking of love, although I’m not a NEET I’m still mostly isolated in my dorm room, with my Flandre dakimakura. I don’t have the capacity for imagination like what 21CDB mentioned in the podcast though, and if given the choice I would rather be with a real person. Actually, I think I do have the capacity for imagination – lots of it – but I’m afraid of it because I don’t want to end up becoming totally delusional. Or maybe I already am.
December 15, 2011 at 12:47 am
If I had a Flandre dakimakura, I’d be lost in illusion all the time.
December 15, 2011 at 8:32 pm
It’s killing me that I’m on winter break and don’t get to be with her… It literally takes me an hour to get out of bed when I’m with her because I keep falling down and hugging her… And I sometimes lightly kiss her.
……. I’M BEYOND THE POINT OF NO RETURN #FOREVERALONE
December 17, 2011 at 2:07 am
You should write it! I’d be the first to read it. Your perspective is nothing if not unique.
Thanks for listening to the podcast!
December 28, 2011 at 11:12 pm
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